Sumiran: Perhaps you have some questions, some topic? To discuss. Because a satsang implies an investigation. An investigation by means of a dialog, it is one of the aspects of a satsang.
Seeker: Before coming here I have read the material about seven bodies, and I became interested from which body I live the life myself?
Su.: What is your name?
Se.: Nadezhda.
Su.: How do you feel yourself, Nadezhda, where are you?
Se.: Well, I hope I have sorted it out everything with the emotional body.
Su.: And now, where do you feel yourself, in what?
Se.: I hope that in Atma.
Su.: And what does this mean?
Se.: I feel my soul.
Su.: How do you feel this?
Se.: Well, I don�t know how I feel�
Su.: Ok, perhaps you have another questions?
Se.: Then I have another question. Sorrow is felt so vividly, so strongly. And happiness is so transparent. I mean it exists, but it is so delicate that it seems just unnoticeable as compared to sorrow. Is that possible?
Su.: There are two phenomena. In one case happiness is the opposition of sorrow. It is duality. I.e. when I feel bad � I feel bad, and when I have the glimpses of happiness � it is opposite to that state when I felt bad. This kind of happiness is always vulnerable, always temporary. Because this happiness is only another side of pain, sorrow, etc. They always change one another � sorrow and happiness, joy and sadness, joy of communication and pain of loneliness. This is the phenomena when we consider happiness as something opposite to suffering. This has its place in the world of duality.
There is a happiness which brings the acceptance of life itself� when I have sorrow I accept it � I am happy; when the joy comes I accept joy � I am happy in this; when the joy leaves � I am happy that it leaves, let go� And this is the happiness that is not the opposition of sorrow. This is what transcends happiness and sorrow as experiences � it is the state of contemplation itself, of acceptance of life, when we simply observe the duality of sorrow and joy, of loneliness and communication. If we are in a state of contemplation, of acceptance of both sides of life, it gives us a feeling of liberation, a feeling of happiness and lightness towards life, which is not something temporary, which is just the context of life. Which is not subject to influence of any emotional states or life processes, because this state accepts all the processes in all their totality. And the acceptance itself gives a man a feeling of happiness, a feeling of freedom.
Se.: That�s the point, it is so quiet, so even. That is you are in this, and� but no such an elation.
Su.: Why should it be? Elation� you quickly get tired of it. We go to celebrations and then come back home and take a rest of these celebrations there. And there shouldn�t be anything like elation at home, otherwise you ran away the third day. I feel that it is not high ecstasy; it�s a very even state of silence and peace� Not something out of line. It is the psychoenergetical, emotional experiences that can be so bright. And this is not an experience, this is the witness of an experience. And the witness is neutral, it is simply present. That�s why he is not involved.
There was a term about enlightenment used in China - they called it �nothing special�. What happened to you? � Nothing special. Sometimes there can be a false idea, because some Masters, in order to motivate people to start the spiritual search, like Osho Rajneesh, describe it very colorful. First of all, it is individual � perhaps with someone it occurs like that. Second, it is simply a trap of the Master. He is simply trying to attract a man to the search some way.
Sometimes we see descriptions when people said that realization happened so unnoticeable, that a person hardly noticed that something did happen to him.
Se.: Did other people notice?
Su.: Others hardly noticed, too� A Master could notice. In principle only a Master can confirm that something happened. For example, Ramesh Balsekar says that actually nothing special happened to him. He says that he felt himself a little unusual for three days, and then everything clicked into place. He knew that something happened, but along with this he says that nothing special � no celestial maidens came down, threw no flowers on him. But he knew that something happened, and Nisargadatta, his teacher, knew about this. So, it�s very individual for everyone. Someone may have this pass through a very high emotionality, someone may have this happen very softly � there is no common scheme.
Se.: So, if there is no Master you even never know. It is too bad! (Laughter in the room)
Su.: Well, it won�t have importance for you then. Enlightenment is only a label, just a word. What�s important is the quality you will be living in. You will be living simply in peace. What�s the diff, enlightened or not. After all we are doing this not to show off, but to balance our internal life. If you balance it, what�s the difference, how you are called.
Se.: I have read about seven bodies and there is such a grid, as I understood, may be I understood in a wrong way � it�s crucial to know where you are now. Isn�t it enough for self-realization to quietly, evenly, calmly live? Is it necessary to match oneself with this grid of reference? Is this an indispensible condition for growth, in order not to pay attention to it later, or one might not know this?
Su.: Well, in principle� Initially all the nature is living quietly and peacefully, except for the man, isn�t it? The cow in its stall is also living quietly and peacefully all its life. And dies being a cow. A human is the only being that can ask � �And who am I? Am I really a human?� � can try to find some sense. Because a wolf never asks �am I a wolf, or something more than a wolf?� He was born a wolf, he dies a wolf. Any animal is living like this. An animal doesn�t have such an ability to ask �Who am I? Am I really this what I consider myself to be at this moment, or am I something else? � This is only the ability of a human being to ask such a question. And further, a human has an ability not only to ask this question, but even to answer it. I.e. to open something in himself that he is maybe simply not aware of. It is his nature. But he is not aware of it, his attention is captured by a certain scope of reality and by being identified with this scope of reality, by which his attention is captured, he knows himself as this scope of reality. Therefore, the process of self-consciousness, being conscious of what we are, is in reality a process of being conscious of what we are NOT, but consider ourselves to be.
That is why I gave this structure, this grid, because it helps to get rid of the idea who we are. Because usually we know ourselves as someone � it doesn�t matter a human, an energy, or there is something else; we define ourselves as something. One may ask a question � are we really defined or we are the pure being itself that is not defined, is not some particular form, but simply life as it is. This question requires investigation, one�s own investigation � am I really that form that I identify myself with or maybe I am something else. Until this question arises in a person, he may live quietly, peacefully, if the conditions allow to do this, and quietly and peacefully die, as something he has known himself to be. If he has known himself as a human � he dies as a human � he dies. Because he knows himself as a form, and a form deteriorates earlier or later, any form, even the forms of gods deteriorate after some time. And then a man faces the fact of birth and death that is suffering as such. Because everything that has a form will be subject to destruction after some period of time, and if a man knows himself as something that has a form, he will know himself as something that is going to die. And he will live having a certain stress because of this situation.
Hence, what is meditation? � a possibility to arrive at understanding, at feeling oneself as someone having no form, and therefore not being defined, but at the same time not being something dead, but something alive, self-conscious. When a man arrives at such a vision of oneself, at such a form of contemplation, he actually transcends the cycle of birth and death; it is what was called �two times born�, born for the second time, but this time not as a form, but as some self-consciousness. And consequently, he transcends the cycle of destruction. But what does this mean, not to define oneself � not to have a right of property neither for the body, nor for the mind, nor for emotions, nor for energy, isn�t it so? Because all this is form. If I am not self-defined through this, then I am free. Consequently I wasn�t born, and I am not subject to death. Therefore, everything that death can take, I have already given � I renounce all these right now. Then, when death comes, it can take anything it likes, because I possess nothing. Therefore, this phenomenon is not a stress any more.
The process of self-investigation is necessary in order all this to be opened � not using a conceptual knowledge, but by taking away self-identification of the consciousness with objects, in the consciousness itself. And hence, the very consciousness comes to know itself as the nature of all things, of the whole universe. And it comes to know its essence as something that wasn�t created and won�t be destroyed. And then, from this state now on, a man goes on living. And life is free of fear, because the feeling of freedom is the basis. And consequently, his life becomes love, because love reveals itself, when there is no fear.
This cycle is ought to be passed through, it doesn�t happen by itself, at least as experience shows. If one has a look at the mankind, many people have lived quite peacefully, sometimes there were periods of calm life, but no one came to understanding, except for the people who asked themselves a question about it and started a cycle of internal investigation. And, in general, the statistic speaks enough for itself, so we can�t ignore this fact. We have to make some movement towards the divine, then it responds, but it responds to our movement. Otherwise everything is closed.
Se.: Is it the only way of development, general for everybody, or there are some others? Because out of my personal experience it is somewhat not like this. Any question that I can ask myself, I have the answer at once, as if I already know it.
Su.: Good. Then let us deal with this question. Who are you? Who is the one who finds answers?
Se.: Who is the one who finds the answers?
Su.: Yes.
Se.: Is it important?
Su.: If you can answer any question for yourself, answer this one. They say it is the most important question, because you may know everything except for the knower. This is the key question. You may know the whole universe, but if you don�t know yourself you won�t be happy.
Se.: Is it not enough to be a form that the universe resides in? No?
Su.: And what is that a kind of form that the universe resides in?
Se.: Well, I don�t understand. The body is subject to death, yeah? There is something living in it. Everything contents me. There are answers to all questions. Rather the answers are already given, and I perceive the question later on.
Su.: By now I hear you speaking about the body, about someone living in this body. But who is speaking? It turns out that you are not the body, and not the one, who is living, you are some third party that states this.
Se.: Well, I can look at myself both ways � with the eyes of eternity, and with the eyes of the temporary. And I can be present at these dialogs.
Su.: So, who is this �I� that can do all this? Where is it, at which point of space?
Se.: Is it that important to know, where, what, which? Why is it important, what for?
Su.: Because it is the only possibility to live in peace and love.
Se.: But I don�t have this question arising, didn�t have until the moment I heard about it, read about it. I imagine myself as a mechanism that� a man itself is a mechanism of making some movements aimed at improving the conditions, the quality of life. There sits something that knows the way, the route, the map, the direction, all possible stops.
Su.: You are speaking about the improvement of the quality of life, so it doesn�t satisfy you at the moment.
Se.: I think that it can be improved endlessly. It�s a process, when there is always something more valuable.
Su.: And do you like this process?
Se.: It is the process of cognition, yes, it has interest for me.
Su.: Then you can go on with it.
Se.: Well, I am going on.
Su.: You can deal with this, without asking the question �Who am I?�, if you like. And many people do this.
Se.: And?
Su.: And do. Do and do.
Se.: And then get to know, that it is needed to know �Where I am from� and �Who I am�.
Su.: It is not needed. Actually it has to appear as something of your own, it can�t be imposed on you. It is a question; it is not being imposed on anyone. There is no imposing of ideology or a form of conduct, or a life style. It occurs that in some people by itself there appears a wish to finally get to know who is improving all this. Who is the doer, who is the one who is doing all this, who is improving the body, the universe. Who is it?
Se.: Who is it?
Su.: Does this question arise? If there appears a wish to solve this, there are people who can help you in this. And if the question doesn�t arise, it is not being imposed. If it doesn�t arise, then you are involved in what you are involved � someone is involved in self-improvement, someone is involved in the destruction of this improvement � they are all involved in something. Everybody is involved in something in life. That is why it is supposed that at the satsang gather people who are interested in the study of this question themselves. The question �Who is the doer?�, �Who is living?�, �Who is self-improving?� Other people are involved in doing something else, and at some other places. There is no missionary work, something like �everyone has to know this�. These are very rare people who have such a strange thought coming to their mind: �who am I?�, �was I born?�, �Will I die?�, what is primary � I or the universe I live in?� Such strange questions. And there are certain answers to them through understanding, through contemplation, through meditation. But it is not interesting to everybody. It is interesting to a little percent of people, maybe to one per thousand, ten thousands.
Se.: I am now thinking how can I die, I will simply reunite and that�s all. What suffering can be?
S.: No suffering. Simply, how deep is this understanding, and to what extend will you reason like this when you will be dying?
Se.: But I won�t die.
Su.: You will die.
Se.: No.
Su.: Who won�t die; the body will, won�t it?
Su.: Well, the body is a temporary form.
Su.: And what isn�t a temporary, tell you me?
Se.: All the rest.
Su.: And what the rest? Where is it?
Se.: A complex of feelings, energies, thoughts.
Su.: Why do you think so? They are the same energy systems, they will scatter in the universe in the same way.
Se.: There is something eternal in me also.
Su.: Aaa. So, exactly what is this eternal?
Su.: The soul, I call it this way. I feel it as a soul.
Su.: How do you feel it?
Se.: Wow. I am in raptures over it.
Su.: Describe it. If you are in raptures over it, you should be able to describe it.
Se.: Well, it is in some certain situations... And simply, it is something whole. I know it is a toiler. A working soul.
Su.: Can you invite it here, that we all have a look at this phenomenon?
Se.: Well it is present here now, certainly, if you see it.
Su.: Well, if you see, describe it. What do you see? Look at it and speak.
Se.: I can perceive it in some common human image, like a woman in some clothes. I can perceive it as such a bundle, alive, trembling, having certain dimensions, but it�s hard to say exactly which size, because it is not in space, therefore how can I do this?...
Su: So where are you? Are you here or it is she?
Se.: Simultaneously. Sometimes I merge with her. And when I merge with her even a little, even by an inch, I have such a quiet happiness coming.
Su.: When you are telling �I merge�, again you are creating duality. You are separate, she is separate, otherwise there would be no question about merging.
Se.: Well, it�s a temporary merging. I can�t do it at once, well like� I do have my sorrowful experience of living, positive and negative.
Su.: So, still you are you, and the soul is not you.
Se.: Yes. We are not the one yet. The soul is also an image. Well, I see it as an image sometimes, perceive as a woman.
Su.: When you say that you won�t die, from which part are you speaking?
Se.: My experience that I got will remains in that eternal anyway. If she came to get this experience through me, then my part will also remain with her.
Su.: Did you know all this when you were a child?
Se.: I felt, I didn�t know. Through, I even don�t know how to explain�
Su.: When did your soul actually appear, what do you think? Exactly yours, personal.
Se.: I guess how old is she, but when? Our earth and cosmic years, they are a little bit different� But rather a long time ago.
Su.: And what was the source of its birth?
Se.: A mother and a farther, same two souls.
Su.: And the initial source?
Se.: And the initial possibly the one that is absolute� I don�t know, I haven�t gazed so far, it was enough of the happiness of mother and farther for me.
Su.: Do you understand that something that is born, should die, even if it is a soul?
Se.: I think it will reunite with the whole. Is it possible that I die in the personal?
Su.: Yes, in the personal. Any isolation is personal.
Se.: Yes. Yes, I understand this. Well it will simply be a new form, and that�s it. Not even a form, but a form of living.
Su.: Why don�t you abandon the personal approach now?
Se.: I still have some things to accomplish.
Su.: Why do you think that existence won�t care about these things without you?
Se.: Well, I don�t know, it seems to me so.
Su.: Do you place yourself higher than Lord?
Se.: No. No. I simply think that he is not calling me to leave yet.
Su.: The matter is not in leaving, but about the absence of the sense of the doer. What do you think, the things you are doing, is it you who is doing these things or they happen to you?
Se.: This happens to me. I don�t resist to it. I understand it, sometimes I understand it.
Su.: And if you understand, then, maybe you simply leave the stage?
Se.: Well, I don�t understand all yet, far from all.
Su.: Well, you don�t need to understand all. It�s enough to understand, that life is happening through you. And then, a personal approach to life is not necessary.
Se.: It seems to me, or am I not correct, that even if I can realize myself in this life, and be ready to go to the Common consciously, I wouldn�t like that on Earth there stayed my son full of suffering, my grandchildren full of suffering, my relatives. I�d like all to experience the same, and all leave in a proper manner. Such a quiet idyll.
Su.: What does it mean to search realization in your concept?
Se.: To become a God, a Goddess.
Su.: God doesn�t have �it�s grandchildren� � all people are his. So, if you become a God, you won�t have �your�, personal relatives.
Se.: Yes, then God will have many universal children who are still suffering on this Earth, who are more suffering than having joy.
Su.: What do you think, you first become God, and then reject your property, or you first reject your property, and then become God?
Se.: I think, reject first, and then become God. I think this is the way.
Su.: Why don�t do this right now?
Se.: I have strong attachments on the Earth. (Laughter) I still want to live a little more time in this form.
Su.: I am not speaking about the form, I am speaking about attachment. Stay in form, but take away all the attachments.
Se.: My close, relative people.
Su.: If you cease to be attached to them, would they be greatly sad?
Se.: Maybe someone wakes up in the morning, and is free, but I am relieving very slowly from this lumber that I have worked on. And I see that my relatives are getting very much sad about this�
Su.: About the fact that you relieve from lumber?
Se.: The freer I am, the more pressed they are. I.e. for them it is a failure in life.
Su.: So, may be there is something wrong with your freedom? Maybe your freedom is guided by its egoistic need?
Se.: Well, then why� Maybe.
Su.: But it is not divine freedom. It is not the freedom in reality that doesn�t cares for others�
Se.: When it doesn�t care it is one thing, another thing is when you try to realize yourself.
Su.: At the expense of the others?�
Se.: Why exactly at the expense of the others?
Su.: And why they are getting tensed, the more freedom you have the more tensed they are? A strange phenomenon. It comes out that everyone round Jesus should had been highly tensed, because he had freed himself by that time.
Se.: Well� eh, I need to think.
Su.: Usually we see the opposite � when the man is holy � people start approaching to him, they want to be close to him. But if in the moment of your becoming free everyone starts running away, one should think over, what a kind of phenomenon is this.
Se.: When you become free, you stop feeling yourself like others, really stop; there comes a question: who is going to keep you? And everybody is very much tensed about this.
Su.: Really. And who is going to keep you? Who has to keep you, actually?
Se.: No one has to, that�s the point, but you allow yourself some breaks that make people tensed anyway � why don�t you work like everybody eleven months per year, and so and so.
Su.: Yes, it happens, such a behavior is unusual, but if you are financially independent I don�t think there can by any pressure on you in this. You can work one day per year, but if you are financially independent, who will bother?
Se.: But I reside not alone.
Su.: Well, if you have your own budget, what worries can be?
Se.: It is me who has my own budget, and they have a common budget. I consider the budget is mine, and they consider that I am a wife.
Su.: And you are obliged�
Se.: Yes, I am obliged to everyone.
Su.: Well, one has to have a look here, because sometimes there happens inadequacy in relations, for sure. But I am speaking not about the material sphere; I am speaking about psychological attachment. You may have money, but not be attached, have children, but not be attached. I.e. attachment is a psychological phenomenon. You may take care of them, but not be attached. These are psychological phenomena, I am not telling you to reject your property, I am speaking about not feeling a psychological right to some things.
Se.: When you don�t feel property on them, they start being offended. They feel empty in this place. They so much live with what they live, and you must be there, where you must; and when you are free, people get pissed off.
Su.: I can understand that people may be pissed off by the lack of attention to them, but not the lack of the sense of property. When we try to affect people as a property, it is exactly by this quality that we irritate them. If I don�t perceive a person like a property, he feels himself free. But into this thing should be also brought love.
Se.: When I take care of my child, I take care not of that he has clean socks � he�s got a wife thanks god. I take care of his deathless soul, in order it to blossom, to manifest. In order it to take the place of what I have wrongly given to him in my time.
Su.: Did he ask you to take care of his soul?
Se.: Well, I don�t take care despite the demands of this soul, I am simply trying not to bring him extra difficulties.
Su.: It is logical.
Se.: Yes. And I am trying to understand that if he is behaving like this, then there is a reason why he is behaving so. But he thinks that because of some reason I am indifferent, heartless, I am not a mum at all, but a� stool.
Su.: There is simply no understanding. He should understand. You should not only want something. It�s an art to make a person understand, clarify the idea, show what you want.
Se.: I tried. And understood that I shouldn�t�t do this. The person will get mature himself and will be able to see everything from his own, maybe in the moment of his death, and understand everything. It doesn�t matter when. I don�t need his appreciation �thank you, mum�. It is not that�s important for me.
Su.: Well, if it is not that�s important.
Se.: No, it isn�t. That is why there is such a difficulty in the relations. When you live in the society it�s very difficult, when there is no understanding from the other side.
Su.: It is difficult when there is no understanding from your side also. That�s why if you are going to wait when society changes, you never attain that; it hasn�t been changing for 5 thousand years. Why do you think your son should be some exception of the general structure? Freedom is your own absence of attachment; you can�t wait till someone changes. Either you do it yourself at once, or you don�t do it, because you don�t understand or don�t want to do something yourself. Because you are able to be free right now. Right now. Free from everything.
Se.: I have made such a step once. I simply went away. Simply went away in order not to disturb them with my seeking, my night non-sleeping.
Su.: No, it�s not an action in the physical sphere. It is an inner understanding that you are bound by nothing, absolutely nothing.
Se.: Yes, but I tried in the outer sphere to free them, i.e. to get totally free.
Su.: Well, these are some details of your situation, they can differ. But the point is that if you internaly understand what we are speaking about it doesn�t matter which situations happen in life� you remain free. You may stay in the family and be free, you may abandon and be free, and internally you know that you are free. As this phenomenon has an inner nature. It is not a phenomenon of the outer nature. And then this phenomenon itself is going to define your life, originating from understanding, from this feeling of freedom and wisdom. This experience of nonattachment should be psychologically very deeply understood.
(The meeting is coming to an end. More questions aroused).
Se.: You know, freedom is different and is manifested in different ways. For instance, freedom in creativity.
Su.: Yes, there exist relative types of freedom. Relative to this or that extend, and there are lots of them. There is a freedom in creativity, freedom in art, freedom from something. And there is absolute freedom. I.e. the freedom that is absolute.
Se.: But absolute freedom is achieved by some steps.
Su.: No. The matter is that the absolute is not achieved by the relative. Absolute cannot be approached to step by step. Absolute is completely in another dimension � it is a quantum transition. By moving in space and time we cannot transcend the limits of space and time. That is why absolute freedom is not connected to gradualness. Otherwise it won�t be absolute, it will be depending on something. If you are able to gradually come it, you are also able to gradually lose it.
Se.: Then I have a question. Once I experienced a state of a complete freedom from the society, from the laws, from everything. I was so much alone, lonely, with a feeling of not being needed, although I was knocking at many doors. I had no one to discuss this situation with, to say that it will settle down, it will fall away with some development. I understood that I flew into something where I simply have no experience, no one to speak to, and I was begging to come back, I was begging for quite a long time and I gained it. And now I am again in the same situation, but I am conscious now. I have understood now what conscious necessity is. I.e. now I am consciously putting my nose there. And now here is this feeling of repeatability, i.e. now I already now where I have been, and I know how it is to be there. It was a kind of a tiny moment, a particle of life, but I remember it. Now everything is a little bit different, and I am stronger now, I am not afraid to stay alone there.
Su.: Absoluteness in freedom is connected not to the freedom from something, but to the freedom from oneself. Because the greatest boundness is we ourselves. In order to understand this one should meditate, should ponder it over - what does it mean to be free from oneself?
Se.: One more time, what should one do?
Su.: Ponder over, meditate. Try to see what makes me not free from myself. Because a person is a prison to oneself. And to understand this freedom from oneself, not from something external, but from oneself as an isolation of life � this freedom is absolute. And there is nobody in this freedom to feel lonely, because he disappears. I.e. it is not like �I am free�. Because this �I� exactly is the problem. Only freedom should be left, you should disappear. Because in the absolute freedom there is no place for two. There is no one who is free, only freedom. There is no a person. There is no one who states the freedom. There is no one who speaks about it. There is only the phenomenon, and this phenomenon has the quality of absoluteness. Until there is a person who feels itself free � it is still an illusion. This freedom is relative � earlier or later it will come to an end.
Se.: A person will come to an end or freedom?
Su.: Freedom of a person.
Se.: Are we speaking about death?
Su.: No.
Se.: I.e. the one that will remain is only absolute freedom?
Su.: Without the one who has it, experiences it.
Se.: Isn�t a person destroyed along with this?
Su.: A person is absolutely destroyed.
Se.: Hm. Is it being transformed?
Su.: No, it is being destroyed.
Se.: A person is being destroyed, what does remain?
Su.: Only freedom remains.
Se.: In the physical sphere�
Su.: The body might go on living. There is no one who is living in this body as a person.
Se.: Aha, the barriers disappear. I don�t see the barriers � only the web.
Su.: Doesn�t matter. There is neither web, nor the one who sees it.
Se.: Aha, the one who sees it is also isn�t?
Su.: Also isn�t. And there�s also isn�t the one who doesn�t see it.
Se.: I don't understand then. One should turn out to be there, in order to�
Su.: Exactly, it cannot be understood. One should turn out to be there.
Se.: It is called the widening of consciousness� Anyway cannot be understood. But could it be felt still? That is when you are there you know that you are there.
Su.: When you are there you don�t know that you are there. It is when you are here you think that you know that you are there.
Se.: And when when� A-a-a, we don�t understand� We only experience this, don�t we?
Su: It only happens. With those who want it very much.
Se.: It cannot be coaxed, it cannot be earned, it can only be received as grace, isn�t it?
Su.: It can be received as grace, but what is needed from a man is a sincere aspiration to it.
Se.: A very sincere aspiration?
Su.: Yes.
Se.: To freedom?
Su.: To freedom.
Se.: Well, it�s a kind of difficult to solve this question. If so sincerely I aspire to freedom, won�t it disturb the peace of my nearest people? (laughter in the room)
Su.: It doesn�t matter any longer. Even if the whole universe collapses � it doesn�t matter any longer. Only if such an aspiration exists, then it may happen. Until you are thinking about the nearest � you may not worry � nothing happens. It should be such a passion that beside this nothing concerns you.
Se.: How there could be such a passion to something that can be identified by no means?
Su.: This is a sacrament. A sacrament, but it happens to some people.
Se.: That is it is like you make a step into darkness, and it turns out to be a steep and� you can fall into the hay, into the river.
Su.: That is why it is said about trusting life. If a person doesn�t have the trust to existence, trust to life�
Se.: Have I approached this? Wow!
Su.: Why not?
Se.: The wall is going to disappear by itself, or one needs to take it away? Is it possible to take it consciously away?
Su.: No. Only grace. There is only a sincere wish that is required from a person.
Se.: To accept, without resistance?
Su.: Yes. And being ready to renounce everything else.
Se.: Keeping one�s sit renounce everything?
Su.: Keeping one�s sit renounce everything. You can try right now.
Se.: Try? What does it mean to try?
Su.: To try to renounce everything keeping your sit. It�s not difficult. What you have is simply your ideas.
Se.: I renounce everything, I only feel pity for my songs. (laughter in the room)
Su.: Can�t help you. No one can renounce, but you. Until you feel pity for anything � this is exactly this web. All your �pities� create this web, when the last �pity� disappears, the web will also vanish.
Se.: I understand that it is the last that I have to live totally.
Su.: Live it totally, if you need.
Se.: Certainly I need. As any creator I want to give it to someone. I want people to take it. Even if people don�t take, to give anyway.
Su.: Well, give everything at once, in the lump.
Se.: A-a, this, this is for freedom? Do you guarantee that then I will�
Su.: I guarantee. If you give away everything � you will receive at this very moment.
Se.: Well, I have to think, what to give away.
Su.: No, everything. Not to think here � to give away everything, including even your soul.
Se.: Really?
Su.: Why not, property on the soul is also a property.
Se.: Ah, yes. But won�t it feel bad because of this?
Su.: It will only feel joy. It will find a new owner. It will be her problems, but not yours. Tell you me, when you give away everything, who will you become?
Se.: No one.
Su.: Exactly.
Se.: Absolutely no one.
Su.: Exactly.
Se.: And the one who became no one, will become all.
Su.: Exactly.
Se.: I do know this.
Su.: Now you need to do this. It�s not enough to know. One should do this.
Se.: Do� But how to do this?
Su.: Simply stop possessing, thinking that you possess something. How did you appear to possess something? You are always thinking that �this is mine�.
Se.: I appeared to possess something?
Su.: You have thoughts �this is mine�. Now you can substitute the though �this is mine� to �this is not mine�. And then suffering ends.
Se.: Ah, this is the point. A thought. I always used to think that this is something too intelligent for me.
Su.: A thought is also not yours. There is nothing yours. You are emptiness, where everything is manifesting, and where everything is disappearing.
Se.: Emptiness, where everything is manifesting, and everything is also disappearing in it?
Su.: Certainly. Have a look. Close your eyes. Where does the thought appear from?
Se.: Is a picture also a thought?
Su.: A picture, where does it appear from?
Se.: Don�t know, I see� they are changing as from the horn of abundance. That is not emptiness then.
Su.: Where is the horn of abundance itself?
Se.: In the head. I feel it in the head.
Su.: It�s not a bad bit of goods to observe all this, where the thoughts, emotions, feelings, appear from. Where they disappear.
Se.: How is that to observe? Well, I see the thought appearing, then going away.
Su.: So, where, where are they going away?
Se.: How is to observe this? They simply dissolve.
Su.: In what?
Se.: In what?! A, in what, in what?
Su.: In nothing!
Se.: In emptiness.
Su.: And where do they appear from?
Se.: From emptiness.
Su.: From emptiness. This is the truth.
Se.: How is this?
Su.: It�s like this. If a though appears from emptiness and disappears in emptiness, what is the thought itself?
Se.: I think it�s a kind of manifestation of emptiness that dissolves later on.
Su.: This is true, but manifestation of emptiness is emptiness.
Se.: A thought is what, a bundle of emptiness?
Su.: It is empty by it�s nature.
Se.: A thought?
Su.: Sure. From water you can make only something that consists of water, everything made of emptiness will consist of emptiness.
Se.: It�s a lame example, you can make ice and vapor.
Su.: But their nature will be water.
Se.: Yes, but it will be transformation. It�s the same as the thought out of emptiness � is it a transformation?
Su.: Certainly, it comes out of emptiness, coming back there again.
Se.: It is good or what? Is it as it should be?
Su.: It is like this. It is simply seen when being observed.
Se.: And what�s the meaning, simply observing its coming and going?
Su.: The meaning is to see that thoughts are not you, images are not you, emotions are not you, because you can perceive them as objects.
Se.: I do understand that emotions come and make me stormy as the body.
Su.: Body is also not you. You are observing it, as well as thoughts and emotions.
Se.: And who is me?
Su.: You are the one who is observing all this.
Se.: I am observing not from the part of the observer, but a kind of from inside.
Su.: However you observe this, you are observing. Observer cannot observe himself. If you observe something, it means there is a distance for observing, it means you are not what you can observe.
Se.: I am neither a though, nor image? Then there is some gap between me and all this?
Su.: It demonstrates that you are nothing of all this.
Se.: Uh, thanks God.
Su.: Therefore you are that which can never be perceived as an object. You never can see yourself. You are that which sees everything, but itself can never be cognized as an object.
Se.: And this is truth? Is it impossible to cognize oneself?
Su.: Certainly impossible. As an object.
Se.: And what is possible?
Su.: To simply know this. You understand, you simply know that you are that which knows everything, but can never be cognized. And simply live with this understanding.
Se.: It turns out to be a very small spot, a very concentrated bundle that has an ability to see, listen, sensate�
Su.: It is not even a spot. It�s a thing in itself. If it were a spot, it could be experienced somehow. It might be called emptiness.
Se.: You have perplexed me. How nothing can have such a giant observing quality? How?
Su.: Like this.
Se.: That is it doesn�t observe itself, it is simply this.
Su.: It is it�s manifested form, one may say. I.e. all the objects are a manifested form of emptiness.
Se.: Well� And what? You say emptiness is a kind of condensed to a though, to an image. But emptiness is emptiness. A thought appears from emptiness somewhere.
Su.: That is why everything we see is void. It�s like when you see a dream � you see the whole universe. Does it exist? And where is it going to, when you wake up?
Se.: To the memory, to the archive.
Su.: And how is it displaying itself?
Se.: I remember it when I feel like to, it is getting filled with feelings.
Su.: What does give the energy to your dreaming? When you are sleeping, which energy is the universe created from?
Se.: It is God that is working, I think.
Su.: It is simply a word. It is you, who bring in God in order to explain something that you cannot understand.
Se.: Sometimes the soul is working with me specifically on some situation that I have to understand. Sometimes a situation is being given to me to work on.
Su.: When you are sleeping in a deep sleep without dreaming, do you feel the body?
Se.: No.
Su.: Soul?
Se.: No.
Su.: Consequently, the soul is secondary as regards your existence. In order to see the soul you are needed. Therefore you are primary. Your consciousness, your witness should be, in order gods, soul and everything else could appear, in order we could speak about this now. When you are unconscious � nothing will be. That is why your consciousness is primary.
Se.: And what?
Su.: And then you have to find the source of this consciousness. Where does it appear from.
Se.: But to my mind, I am always present. I.e. I� I am part of everything in the world that exists. Otherwise how can a feel an ant, communicate to your consciousness, to someone else�s, if I am not all this at the same time?
Su.: If you know that you are all this at the same time, you don�t need to self-develop. You have already finished your self-development.
Se.: I have just grasped it. When I am saying this, I realize.
Su.: Consequently, if you understand this, further development ceases, because the whole is always the whole, it is complete.
Se.: I am a part of the whole, I am not the whole yet, I have not connected yet.
Su.: It�s an idea, that you create yourself.
Se.: A-a-a, so it�s more correct to feel oneself as a whole?
Su.: To my mind, yes. But all this needs to be pondered over. Come here, spend some time being intelligent.